美国总统候选人布什与克里第一场电视辩论(2)
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> 美国总统候选人布什与克里第一场电视辩论
美国总统候选人布什与克里第一场电视辩论
持/会议讨论,节目等)).IwanttothanktheUniversityofMiamiforhostingus.AndIknowthepresidentwilljoinmeinwelcomingallofFloridatothisdebate.You'vebeenthroughtheroughestweeksanybodycouldimagine.Ourheartsgoouttoyou.Andweadmireyourpluckandperseverance.IcanmakeAmericansaferthanPresidentBushhasmadeus.AndIbelievePresidentBushandIbothloveourcountryequally.ButwejusthaveadifferentsetofconvictioabouthowyoumakeAmericasafe.IbelieveAmericaissafestandstrongestwhenweareleadingtheworldandweareleadingstrongalliances.I'llnevergiveavetotoanycountryoveroursecurity.ButIalsoknowhowtoleadthosealliances.Thispresidenthaslefttheminshattersacrotheglobe,andwe'renow90percentofthecasualtiesinIraqand90percentofthecosts.Ithinkthat'swrong,andIthinkwecandobetter.Ihaveabetterplanforhomelandsecurity.Ihaveabetterplantobeabletofightthewaronterrorbystrengtheningourmilitary,strengtheningourintelligence,bygoingafterthefinancingmoreauthoritatively,bydoingwhatweneedtodotorebuildthealliances,byreachingouttotheMuslimworld,whichthepresidenthasalmostnotdone,andbegiingtoisolatetheradicalIslamicMuslims,nothavethemisolatetheUnitedStatesofAmerica.IknowIcandoabetterjobinIraq.Ihaveaplantohaveasummitwithalloftheallies,somethingthispresidenthasnotyetachieved,notyetbeenabletodotobringpeopletothetable.WecandoabetterjoboftrainingtheIraqiforcestodefendthemselves,andIknowthatwecandoabetterjobofpreparingforelectio.Allofthese,andeeciallyhomelandsecurity,whichwe'lltalkaboutalittlebitlater.LEHRER:Mr.President,youhavea90-secondrebuttal.BUSH:I,too,thanktheUniversityofMiami,andsayourprayersarewiththegoodpeopleofthisstate,who'vesufferedalot.Septemberthe11thchangedhowAmericamustlookattheworld.Andsincethatday,ournationhasbeenonamulti-prongedstrategytokeepourcountrysafer.WepursuedAlQaidawhereverAlQaidatriestohide.Seventy-fivepercentofknownAlQaidaleadershavebeenbroughttojustice.Therestofthemknowwe'reafterthem.We'veupheldthedoctrinethatsaidifyouharboraterrorist,you'reequallyasguiltyastheterrorist.AndtheTalibanarenolongerinpower.TenmillionpeoplehaveregisteredtovoteinAfghanistanintheupcomingpresidentialelection.InIraq,wesawathreat,andwerealizedthatafterSeptemberthe11th,wemusttakethreatsseriously,beforetheyfullymaterialize.SaddamHueinnowsitsinaprisoncell.Americaandtheworldaresaferforit.Wecontinuetopursueourpolicyofdisruptingthosewhoproliferateweapoofmadestruction.Libyahasdisarmed.TheA.Q.Khannetworkhasbeenbroughttojustice.And,aswell,we'repursuingastrategyoffreedomaroundtheworld,becauseIunderstandfreenatiowillrejectterror.Freenatiowillawerthehopesandairatiooftheirpeople.Freenatiowillhelpusachievethepeaceweallwant.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President,twominutes.DoyoubelievetheelectionofSenatorKerryonNovemberthe2ndwouldincreasethechancesoftheU.S.beinghitbyanother9/11-typeterroristattack?BUSH:No,Idon'tbelieveit'sgoingtohaen.IbelieveI'mgoingtowin,becausetheAmericanpeopleknowIknowhowtolead.I'veshowntheAmericanpeopleIknowhowtolead.Ihave--Iunderstandeverybodyinthiscountrydoe'tagreewiththedecisioI'vemade.AndImadesometoughdecisio.ButpeopleknowwhereIstand.PeopleouttherelisteningknowwhatIbelieve.Andthat'showbestitistokeepthepeace.Thisnationofourshasgotasolemndutytodefeatthisideologyofhate.Andthat'swhattheyare.Thisisagroupofkillerswhowillnotonlykillhere,butkillchildreninRuia,that'llattackunmercifullyinIraq,hopingtoshakeourwill.Wehaveadutytodefeatthisenemy.Wehaveadutytoprotectourchildrenandgrandchildren.Thebestwaytodefeatthemistoneverwaver,tobestrong,touseeveryaetatourdiosal,istocotantlystayontheoffeiveand,atthesametime,readliberty.Andthat'swhatpeopleareseeingnowishaeninginAfghanistan.Tenmillioncitizehaveregisteredtovote.It'saphenomenalstatistic.They'regivenachancetobefree,andtheywillshowupatthepolls.Forty-onepercentofthose10millionarewomen.InIraq,nodoubtaboutit,it'stough.It'shardwork.It'sincrediblyhard.Youknowwhy?Becauseanenemyrealizesthestakes.TheenemyunderstandsafreeIraqwillbeamajordefeatintheirideologyofhatred.That'swhythey'refightingsovociferously.TheyshowedupinAfghanistanwhentheywerethere,becausetheytriedtobeatusandtheydidn't.Andthey'reshowingupinIraqforthesamereason.They'retryingtodefeatus.Andifweloseourwill,welose.Butifweremainstrongandresolute,wewilldefeatthisenemy.LEHRER:Ninetysecondreoe,SenatorKerry.KERRY:Ibelieveinbeingstrongandresoluteanddetermined.AndIwillhuntdownandkilltheterrorists,wherevertheyare.Butwealsohavetobesmart,Jim.AndsmartmeanotdivertingyourattentionfromtherealwaronterrorinAfghanistanagaitOsamabinLadenandtakingifofftoIraqwherethe9/11Commiionconfirmstherewasnocoectionto9/11itselfandSaddamHuein,andwherethereasonforgoingtowarwasweapoofmadestruction,nottheremovalofSaddamHuein.Thispresidenthasmade,Iregrettosay,acoloalerrorofjudgment.AndjudgmentiswhatwelookforinthepresidentoftheUnitedStatesofAmerica.I'mproudthatimportantmilitaryfigureswhoaresuortingmeinthisrace:formerChairmanoftheJointChiefsofStaffJohnSjustyesterday,GeneralEisenhower'sson,GeneralJohnEisenhower,GeneralAdmiralWilliamCrowGeneralTonyMcBeak,whorantheAirForcewarsoeffectivelyforhisfather--allbelieveIwouldmakeastrongercommanderinchief.AndtheybelieveitbecausetheyknowIwouldnottakemyeyeoffofthegoal:OsamabinLaden.Unfortunately,heescapedinthemountaiofToraBora.Wehadhimsurrounded.Butwedidn'tuseAmericanforces,thebesttrainedintheworld,togokillhim.ThepresidentreliedonAfghanwarlordsandheoutsourcedthatjobtoo.That'swrong.LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes,SenatorKerry."Coloalmisjudgments."Whatcoloalmisjudgments,inyouropinion,hasPresidentBushmadeintheseareas?KERRY:Well,wheredoyouwantmetobegin?Firstofall,hemadethemisjudgmentofsayingtoAmericathathewasgoingtobuildatruealliance,thathewouldexhausttheremediesoftheUnitedNatioandgothroughtheiectio.Infact,hefirstdidn'tevenwanttodothat.Anditwa'tuntilformerSecretaryofStateJimBakerandGeneralScowcroftandotherspushedpubliclyandsaidyou'vegottogototheU.N.,thatthepresidentfinallychangedhismind--hiscampaignhasawordforthat--andwenttotheUnitedNatio.Now,oncethere,wecouldhavecontinuedthoseiectio.WehadSaddamHueintraed.HealsopromisedAmericathathewouldgotowarasalastresort.Thosewordsmeansomethingtome,assomebodywhohasbeenincombat."Lastresort."You'vegottobeabletolookintheeyesoffamiliesandsaytothoseparents,"Itriedtodoeverythinginmypowertopreventtheloofyoursonanddaughter."Idon'tbelievetheUnitedStatesdidthat.Andwepushedouralliesaside.Andso,today,weare90percentofthecasualtiesand90percentofthecost:$200billion--$200billionthatcouldhavebeenusedforhealthcare,forschools,forcotruction,forprescriptiondrugsforseniors,andit'sinIraq.AndIraqisnoteventhecenterofthefocusofthewaronterror.ThecenterisAfghanistan,where,incidentally,thereweremoreAmericakilledlastywheretheopiumproductionis75percentoftheworld'sopiumproductiowhere40to60percentoftheeconomyofAfghawheretheelectiohavebeenpostponedthreetimes.Thepresidentmovedthetroo,sohe'sgot10timesthenumberoftrooinIraqthanhehasinAfghanistan,whereOsamabinLadenis.DoesthatmeanthatSaddamHueinwas10timesmoreimportantthanOsamabinLaden--than,excuseme,SaddamHueinmoreimportantthanOsamabinLaden?Idon'tthinkso.LEHRER:Ninety-secondreoe,Mr.President.BUSH:MyoonentlookedatthesameintelligenceIlookedatanddeclaredin2002thatSaddamHueinwasagravethreat.HealsosaidinDecemberof2003thatanyonewhodoubtsthattheworldissaferwithoutSaddamHueindoesnothavethejudgmenttobepresident.Iagreewithhim.TheworldisbetteroffwithoutSaddamHuein.Iwashopingdiplomacywouldwork.Iunderstandtheseriouscoequencesofcommittingourtroointoharm'sway.It'sthehardestdecisionapresidentmakes.SoIwenttotheUnitedNatio.Ididn'tneedanybodytotellmetogototheUnitedNatio.Idecidedtogotheremyself.AndIwenttherehopingthat,onceandforall,thefreeworldwouldactinconcerttogetSaddamHueintolistentoourdemands.Theypaedtheresolutionthatsaid,"Disclose,disarm,orfaceseriouscoequences."Ibelieve,whenaninternationalbodyeaks,itmustmeanwhatitsays.SaddamHueinhadnointentionofdisarming.Whyshouldhe?Hehad16otherresolutioandnothingtookplace.Asamatteroffact,myoonenttalksaboutiectors.Thefactsarethathewassystematicallydeceivingtheiectors.Thatwa'tgoingtowork.That'skindofapre-September10thmentality,thehopethatsomehowresolutioandfailediectiowouldmakethisworldamorepeacefulplace.Hewashopingwe'dturnaway.Buttherewasfortunatelyothersbesidehimselfwhobelievedthatweoughttotakeaction.Wedid.TheworldissaferwithoutSaddamHuein.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.WhataboutSenatorKerry'spoint,thecomparisonhedrewbetweentheprioritiesofgoingafterOsamabinLadenandgoingafterSaddamHuein?BUSH:Jim,we'vegotthecapabilityofdoingboth.Asamatteroffact,thisisaglobaleffort.We'refacingagroupoffolkswhohavesuchhatredintheirheart,they'llstrikeanywhere,withanymea.Andthat'swhyit'seentialthatwehavestrongalliances,andwedo.That'swhyit'seentialthatwemakesurethatwekeepweapoofmadestructionoutofthehandsofpeoplelikeAlQaida,whichweare.Buttosaythatthere'sonlyonefocusonthewaronterrordoe'treallyunderstandthenatureofthewaronterror.Ofcoursewe'reafterSaddamHuein--ImeanbinLaden.He'sisolated.Seventy-fivepercentofhispeoplehavebeenbroughttojustice.Thekiller--themastermindoftheSeptember11thattacks,KhalidSheikMohammed,isinprison.We'remakingprogre.Butthefrontonthiswarismorethanjustoneplace.ThePhiliines--we'vegothelp--we'rehelpingthemtheretobring--tobringAlQaidaaffiliatestojusticethere.And,ofcourse,Iraqisacentralpartinthewaronterror.That'swhyZarqawiandhispeoplearetryingtofightus.Theirhopeisthatwegrowwearyandweleave.ThebiggestdisasterthatcouldhaenisthatwenotsucceedinIraq.Wewillsucceed.We'vegotaplantodoso.Andthemainreasonwe'llsucceedisbecausetheIraqiswanttobefree.IhadthehonorofvisitingwithPrimeMinisterAllawi.He'sastrong,courageousleader.HebelievesinthefreedomoftheIraqipeople.Hedoe'twantU.S.leadership,however,tosendmixedsignals,tonotstandwiththeIraqipeople.Hebelieves,likeIbelieve,thattheIraqisarereadytofightfortheirownfreedom.Theyjustneedthehelptobetrained.TherewillbeelectioinJanuary.We'reendingrecotructionmoney.Andourallianceisstrong.That'stheplanforvictory.AndwhenIraqiffree,Americawillbemoresecure.LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.KERRY:ThepresidentjusttalkedaboutIraqasacenterofthewaronterror.Iraqwasnotevenclosetothecenterofthewaronterrorbeforethepresidentinvadedit.ThepresidentmadethejudgmenttodivertforcesfromunderGeneralTommyFranksfromAfghanistanbeforetheCongreevenarovedittobegintopreparetogotowarinIraq.AndherushedthewarinIraqwithoutaplantowinthepeace.Now,thatisnotthejudgmentthatapresidentoftheUnitedStatesoughttomake.Youdon'ttakeAmericatowarunlehavetheplantowinthepeace.Youdon'tsendtrootowarwithoutthebodyarmorthattheyneed.I'vemetkidsinOhio,parentsinWiscoinplaces,Iowa,wherethey'regoingoutontheInternettogetthestate-of-the-artbodygeartosendtotheirkids.Someofthemgotthemforabirthdaypresent.Ithinkthat'swrong.Humvees--10,000outof12,000Humveesthatareovertherearen'tarmored.Andyougovisitsomeofthosekidsinthehoitalstodaywhoweremaimedbecausetheydon'thavethearmament.Thispresidentjust--Idon'tknowifheseeswhat'sreallyhaenedonthere.Butit'sgettingworsebytheday.MoresoldierskilledinJunethanbefore.MoreinJulythanJune.MoreinAugustthanJuly.MoreinSeptemberthaninAugust.Andnowweseebeheadings.Andwegotweapoofmadestructioncroingthebordereverysingleday,andthey'reblowingpeopleup.Andwedon'thaveenoughtroothere.BUSH:CanIreondtothat?LEHRER:Let'sdooneoftheseone-minuteexteio.Youhave30seconds.BUSH:Thankyou,sir.Firstofall,whatmyoonentwantsyoutoforgetisthathevotedtoauthorizetheuseofforceandnowsaysit'sthewrongwaratthewrongtimeatthewrongplace.Idon'tseehowyoucanleadthiscountrytosucceedinIraqifyousaywrongwar,wrongtime,wrongplace.Whatmeagedoesthatsendourtroo?Whatmeagedoesthatsendtoourallies?WhatmeagedoesthatsendtheIraqis?No,thewaytowinthisistobesteadfastandresolvedandtofollowthroughontheplanthatI'vejustoutlined.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Senator.KERRY:Yes,wehavetobesteadfastandresolved,andIam.AndIwillsucceedforthosetroo,nowthatwe'rethere.Wehavetosucceed.Wecan'tleaveafailedIraq.Butthatdoe'tmeanitwa'tamistakeofjudgmenttogothereandtakethefocusoffofOsamabinLaden.Itwas.Now,wecansucceed.ButIdon'tbelievethispresidentcan.Ithinkweneedapresidentwhohasthecredibilitytobringthealliesbacktothetableandtodowhat'snecearytomakeitsoAmericai'tdoingthisalone.LEHRER:We'llcomebacktoIraqinamoment.ButIwanttocomebacktowhereIbegan,onhomelandsecurity.Thisisatwo-minutenewquestion,SenatorKerry.Aspresident,whatwouldyoudo,ecifically,inadditiontoordifferentlytoincreasethehomelandsecurityoftheUnitedStatesthanwhatPresidentBushisdoing?KERRY:Jim,letmetellyouexactlywhatI'lldo.Andtherearealonglistofthing.Firstofall,whatkindofmixedmeagedoesitsendwhenyouhave$500milliongoingovertoIraqtoputpoliceofficersinthestreetsofIraq,andthepresidentiscuttingtheCOprograminAmerica?WhatkindofmeagedoesitsendtobesendingmoneytoopenfirehousesinIraq,butwe'reshuttingfirehouseswhoarethefirst-reondershereinAmerica.Thepresidentha'tputonenickel,notonenickelintotheefforttofixsomeofourtuelsandbridgesandmostexposedsubwaysystems.That'swhytheyhadtoclosedownthesubwayinNewYorkwhentheRepublicanConventionwasthere.Wehadn'tdonetheworkthatoughttobedone.Thepresident--95percentofthecontainersthatcomeintotheports,righthereinFlorida,arenotiected.Civiliagetontoaircraft,andtheirluggageisX-rayed,butthecargoholdisnotX-rayed.DoesthatmakeyoufeelsaferinAmerica?ThispresidentthoughtitwasmoreimportanttogivethewealthiestpeopleinAmericaataxcutratherthaninvestinhomelandsecurity.Thosearen'tmyvalues.IbelieveinprotectingAmericafirst.AndlongbeforePresidentBushandIgetataxcut--andthat'swhogetsit--longbeforewedo,I'mgoingtoinvestinhomelandsecurityandI'mgoingtomakesurewe'renotcuttingCOprogramsinAmericaandwe'refullystaffedinourfirehousesandthatweprotectthenuclearandchemicalplants.Thepresidentalsounfortunatelygaveintothechemicalindustry,whichdidn'twanttodosomeofthethingsnecearytostrengthenourchemicalplantexposure.Andthere'sanenormousundonejobtoprotecttheloosenuclearmaterialsintheworldthatareabletogettoterrorists.That'sawholeothersubject,butIseewestillhavealittlebitmoretime.Letmejustquicklysay,atthecurrentpace,thepresidentwillnotsecuretheloosematerialintheSovietUnion--formerSovietUnionfor13years.I'mgoingtodoitinfouryears.Andwe'regoingtokeepitoutofthehandsofterrorists.LEHRER:Ninety-secondreoe,Mr.President.BUSH:Idon'tthinkwewanttogettohowhe'sgoingtopayforallthesepromises.It'slikeahugetaxgap.Anyway,that'sforanotherdebate.Myadministrationhastripledtheamountofmoneywe'reendingonhomelandsecurityto$30billionayear.MyadministrationworkedwiththeCongretocreatetheDepartmentofHomelandSecuritysowecouldbettercoordinateourbordersandports.We'vegot1,000extraborderpatrowant1,000onthenorthernborder.We'remodernizingourborders.Weent$3.1billionforfireandpolice,$3.1billion.We'redoingourdutytoprovidethefunding.Butthebestwaytoprotectthishomelandistostayontheoffee.Youknow,wehavetoberight100percentofthetime.Andtheenemyonlyhastoberightoncetohurtus.There'salotofgoodpeopleworkinghard.Andbytheway,we'vealsochangedthecultureoftheFBItohavecounterterrorismasitsnumberonepriority.We'recommunicatingbetter.We'regoingtoreformourintelligenceservicestomakesurethatwegetthebestintelligencepoible.ThePatriotActisvital--isvitalthattheCongrerenewthePatriotActwhichenablesourlawenforcementtodisruptterrorcells.Butagain,Irepeattomyfellowcitize,thebestwaytoprotectionistostayontheoffee.LEHRER:Yes,let'sdoalittle--yes,30seconds.KERRY:ThepresidentjustsaidtheFBIhadchangeditsculture.WejustreadonthefrontpagesofAmerica'spapersthatthereareover100,000hoursoftapes,unlistenedto.Ononeofthosetapesmaybetheenemybeingrightthenexttime.Andthetestisnotwhetheryou'reendingmoremoney.Thetestis,areyoudoingeverythingpoibletomakeAmericasafe?Wedidn'tneedthattaxcut.Americaneededtobesafe.BUSH:Ofcoursewe'redoingeverythingwecantoprotectAmerica.IwakeupeverydaythinkingabouthowbesttoprotectAmerica.That'smyjob.IworkwithDirectorMuelleroftheFBI;comesinmyofficewhenI'minWashingtoneverymorning,talkingabouthowtoprotectus.There'salotofreallygoodpeopleworkinghardtodoso.It'shardwork.But,again,IwanttotelltheAmericanpeople,we'redoingeverythingwecanathome,butyoubetterhaveapresidentwhochasestheseterroristsdownandbringthemtojusticebeforetheyhurtusagain.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.WhatcriteriawouldyouusetodeterminewhentostartbringingU.S.troohomefromIraq?BUSH:LetmefirsttellyouthatthebestwayforIraqtobesafeandsecureisforIraqicitizetobetrainedtodothejob.Andthat'swhatwe'redoing.We'vegot100,000trainednow,125,000bytheendofthisyear,200,000bytheendofnextyear.Thatisthebestway.We'llneversucceedinIraqiftheIraqicitizedonotwanttotakemattersintotheirownhandstoprotectthemselves.Ibelievetheywantto.PrimeMinisterAllawibelievestheywantto.Andsothebestindicationaboutwhenwecanbringourtroohome--whichIreallywanttodo,butIdon'twanttodosoforthesaIwanttodosobecausewe'veachievedanobjective--istoseetheIraqisperformandtoseetheIraqisstepupandtakereoibility.Andso,theawertoyourquestionis:WhenourgeneralisonthegroundandAmbaadorNegropontetellsmethatIraqisreadytodefendherselffromtheseterrorists,thatelectiowillhavebeenheldbythen,thattheirstabilityandthatthey'reontheirwayto,youknow,anationthat'that'swhen.AndIhopeit'sassoonaspoible.ButIknowputtingartificialdeadlineswon'twork.Myoonentatonetimesaid,"Well,getmeelected,I'llhavethemoutofthereinsixmonths."Youcan'tdothatandexpecttowinthewaronterror.Mymeagetoourtroois,"Thankyouforwhatyou'redoing.We'restandingwithyoustrong.We'llgiveyoualltheequipmentyouneed.Andwe'llgetyouhomeassoonasthemiion'sdone,becausethisisavitalmiion."AfreeIraqwillbeanallyinthewaronterror,andthat'seential.AfreeIraqwillsetapowerfulexampleinthepartoftheworldthatisdeerateforfreedom.AfreeIraqwillhelpsecureIsrael.AfreeIraqwillenforcethehopesandairatioofthereformersinplaceslikeIran.AfreeIraqiseentialforthesecurityofthiscountry.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.KERRY:Thankyou,Jim.Mymeagetothetrooisalso:Thankyouforwhatthey'redoing,butit'salsohelpisontheway.Ibelievethosetroodeservebetterthanwhattheyaregettingtoday.Youknow,it'sinteresting.WhenIwasinaropelinejusttheotherday,comingoutherefromWiscoin,acoupleofyoungreturneeswereintheline,oneactiveduty,onefromtheGuard.Andtheybothlookedatmeandsaid:Weneedyou.You'vegottohelpusoverthere.NowIbelievethere'sabetterwaytodothis.Youknow,thepresident'sfatherdidnotgointoIraq,intoBaghdad,beyondBasra.Andthereasonhedidn'tis,hesaid--hewroteinhisbook--becausetherewasnoviableexitstrategy.Andhesaidourtroowouldbeoccupiersinabitterlyhostileland.That'sexactlywherewefindourselvestoday.There'saseeofAmericanoccupation.TheonlybuildingthatwasguardedwhenthetroowhenintoBaghdadwastheoilministry.Wedidn'tguardthenuclearfacilities.Wedidn'tguardtheforeignoffice,whereyoumighthavefoundinformationaboutweapoofmadestruction.Wedidn'tguardtheborders.Almosteverystepoftheway,ourtroohavebeenleftontheseextraordinarilydifficultmiio.Iknowwhatit'sliketogooutononeofthosemiiowhenyoudon'tknowwhat'saroundthecorner.AndIbelieveourtrooneedotherallieshelping.I'mgoingtoholdthatsummit.Iwillbringfreshcredibility,anewstart,andwewillgetthejobdoneright.LEHRER:Allright,goahead.Yes,sir?BUSH:Ithinkit'sworthyforafollow-up.LEHRER:Sure,right.(CROTALK)LEHRER:Wecando30secondseachhere.Allright.BUSH:Myoonentsayshelpisontheway,butwhatkindofmeagedoesitsaytoourtrooinharm'sway,"wrongwar,wrongplace,wrongtime"?Notameageacommanderinchiefgives,orthisisa"greatdiversion."Aswell,helpisontheway,butit'scertainlyhardtotellitwhenhevotedagaitthe$87-billionsulementaltoprovideequipmentforourtroo,andthensaidheactuallydidvoteforitbeforehevotedagaitit.Notwhatacommanderinchiefdoeswhenyou'retryingtoleadtroo.LEHRER:SenatorKerry,30seconds.KERRY:Well,youknow,whenItalkedaboutthe$87billion,ImadeamistakeinhowItalkaboutthewar.ButthepresidentmadeamistakeininvadingIraq.Whichisworse?Ibelievethatwhenyouknowsomething'sgoingwrong,youmakeitright.That'swhatIlearnedinVietnam.WhenIcamebackfromthatwarIsawthatitwaswrong.Somepeopledon'tlikethefactthatIstooduptosayno,butIdid.Andthat'swhatIdidwiththatvote.AndI'mgoingtoleadthosetrootovictory.LEHRER:Allright,newquestion.Twominutes,SenatorKerry.eakingofVietnam,youoketoCongrein1971,afteryoucamebackfromVietnam,andyousaid,quote,"Howdoyouaskamantobethelastmantodieforamistake?"AreAmericanowdyinginIraqforamistake?KERRY:No,andtheydon'thaveto,providingwehavetheleadershipthatweput--thatI'moffering.Ibelievethatwehavetowinthis.ThepresidentandIhavealwaysagreedonthat.Andfromthebegiing,Ididvotetogivetheauthority,becauseIthoughtSaddamHueinwasathreat,andIdidacceptthatintelligence.ButIalsolaidoutaverystrictseriesofthingsweneededtodoinordertoproceedfromapositionofstrength.Thenthepresident,infact,promisedthem.HewenttoCinciatiandhegaveaeechinwhichhesaid,"Wewillplancarefully.Wewillproceedcautiously.Wewillnotmakewarinevitable.Wewillgowithourallies."Hedidn'tdoanyofthosethings.Theydidn'tdotheplaing.TheylefttheplaingoftheStateDepartmentintheStateDepartmentdesks.Theyavoidedeventheadviceoftheirowngeneral.GeneralShiheki,theArmychiefofstaff,saidyou'regoingtoneedseveralhundredthousandtroo.Iteadoflisteningtohim,theyretiredhim.Theterrorismczar,whohasworkedforeverypresidentsinceRonaldReagan,said,"InvadingIraqinreoeto9/11wouldbelikeFranklinRooseveltinvadingMexicoinreoetoPearlHarbor."That'swhatwehavehere.Andwhatweneednowisapresidentwhounderstandshowtobringtheseothercountriestogethertorecognizetheirstakesinthis.Theydohavestakesinit.They'vealwayshadstakesinit.TheArabcountrieshaveastakeinnothavingacivilwar.TheEuropeancountrieshaveastakeinnothavingtotaldisorderontheirdoorstep.Butthispresidentha'tevenheldthekindofstatesman-likesummitsthatpullpeopletogetherandgetthemtoinvestinthosestates.Infact,he'sdonetheoosite.Hepushedthemaway.WhentheSecretaryGeneralKofiAanofferedtheUnitedNatio,hesaid,"No,no,we'llgodothisalone."TosaveforHalliburtontheoilsofthewar,theyactuallyiuedamemorandumfromtheDefeeDepartmentsaying,"Ifyouweren'twithusinthewar,don'tbotheralyingforanycotruction."That'snotawaytoinvitepeople.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.BUSH:That'stotallyaurd.Ofcourse,theU.N.wasinvitedin.AndwesuorttheU.N.effortsthere.TheypulledoutafterSergiodeMellogotkilled.Butthey'renowbackinhelpingwithelectio.Myoonentsayswedidn'thaveanyalliesinthiswar.What'shesaytoTonyBlair?What'shesaytoAlexanderKwaiewskiofPoland?Youcan'texpecttobuildanalliancewhenyoudenigratethecontributioofthosewhoareservingsidebysidewithAmericantrooinIraq.Plus,hesaysthecornerstoneofhisplantosucceedinIraqistocalluponnatiotoserve.Sowhat'sthemeagegoingtobe:"PleasejoinusinIraq.We'reagranddiversion.Joinusforawarthatisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime?"Iknowhowthesepeoplethink.Idealwiththemallthetime.Isitdownwiththeworldleadersfrequentlyandtalktothemonthephonefrequently.They'renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosays,"Thisisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime."Iknowhowthesepeoplethink.Idealwiththemallthetime.Isitdownwiththeworldleadersfrequentlyandtalktothemonthephonefrequently.They'renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosaysthisisthewrongwaratthewrongplaceatthewrongtime.They'renotgoingtofollowsomebodywhosecoreconvictiokeepchangingbecauseofpoliticsinAmerica.Andfinally,hesaysweoughttohaveasummit.Well,therearesummitsbeingheld.Japanisgoingtohaveasummitforthedonor$14billionpledged.AndPrimeMinisterKoizumiisgoingtocallcountriestoaccount,togetthemtocontribute.Andthere'sgoingtobeanArabsummit,oftheneighborhoodcountries.AndColinPowellhelpedsetupthatsummit.LEHRER:Fortyseconds,Senator.KERRY:TheUnitedNatio,KofiAanofferedhelpafterBaghdadfell.Andweneverpickedhimuponthatanddidwhatwasnecearytotraferauthorityandtotraferrecotruction.ItwasalwaysAmerican-run.Secondly,whenwewentin,therewerethreecountries:GreatBritain,AustraliaandtheUnitedStates.That'snotagrandcoalition.Wecandobetter.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.BUSH:Well,actually,heforgotPoland.Andnowthere's30natioinvolved,standingsidebysidewithourAmericantroo.AndIhonortheirsacrifices.AndIdon'tareciateitwhencandidateforpresidentdenigratesthecontributioofthesebravesoldiers.Youcaotleadtheworldifyoudonothonorthecontributioofthosewhoarewithus.Hecalledthemcoercedandthebribed.That'snothowyoubringpeopletogether.Ourcoalitionisstrong.Itwillremainstrong,solongasI'mthepresident.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President,twominutes.Youhavesaidtherewasa,quote,"miscalculation,"ofwhattheconditiowouldbeinpost-warIraq.Whatwasthemiscalculation,andhowdidithaen?BUSH:No,whatIsaidwasthat,becauseweachievedsucharapidvictory,moreoftheSaddamloyalistswerearound.Imean,wethoughtwe'dwhipmoreofthemgoingin.ButbecauseTommyFranksdidsuchagreatjobinplaingtheoperation,wemovedrapidly,andalotoftheBaathistsandSaddamloyalistslaiddowntheirarmsanddisaeared.Ithoughttheywouldstayandfight,buttheydidn't.Andnowwe'refightingthemnow.Andit'shardwork.Iunderstandhowharditis.Igetthecasualtyreportseveryday.IseeontheTVscreehowharditis.Butit'snecearywork.AndI'moptimistic.See,Ithinkyoucanberealisticandoptimisticatthesametime.I'moptimisticwe'llachieve--Iknowwewon'tachieveifwesendmixedsignals.Iknowwe'renotgoingtoachieveourobjectiveifwesendmixedsignalstoourtroo,ourfriends,theIraqicitize.We'vegotaplaninplace.TheplansaystherewillbeelectioinJanuary,andtherewillbe.Theplansayswe'lltrainIraqisoldierssotheycandothehardwork,andweare.Andit'snotonlyjustAmerica,butNATOisnowhelping,Jordan'shelpingtrainpolice,UAEishelpingtrainpolice.We'veallocated$7billionoverthenextmonthsforrecotructionefforts.Andwe'remakingprogrethere.Andourallianceisstrong.AndasIjusttoldyou,there'sgoingtobeasummitoftheArabnatio.Japanwillbehostingasummit.We'remakingprogre.Itishardwork.Itishardworktogofromatyraytoademocracy.It'shardworktogofromaplacewherepeoplegettheirhandscutoff,orexecuted,toaplacewherepeoplearefree.Butit'snecearywork.AndafreeIraqisgoingtomakethisworldamorepeacefulplace.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.KERRY:WhatIthinktroublesalotofpeopleinourcountryisthatthepresidenthasjustsortofdescribedonekindofmistake.Butwhathehassaidisthat,evenknowingtherewerenoweapoofmadestruction,evenknowingtherewasnoimminentthreat,evenknowingtherewasnocoectionwithAlQaida,hewouldstillhavedoneeverythingthesameway.Thosearehiswords.Now,Iwouldnot.SowhatI'mtryingtodoisjusttalkthetruthtotheAmericanpeopleandtotheworld.Thetruthiswhatgoodpolicyisbasedon.It'swhatleadershipisbasedon.ThepresidentsaysthatI'mdenigratingthesetroo.IhavenothingbutreectfortheBritish,TonyBlair,andforwhatthey'vebeenwillingtodo.Butyoucan'ttellmethatwhenthemosttrooanyothercountryhasonthegroundisGreatBritain,with8,300,andbelowthatthefourothersarebelow4,000,andbelowthat,therei'tanybodyoutofthehundreds,thatwehaveagenuinecoalitiontogetthisjobdone.Youcan'ttellmethatonthedaythatwewentintothatwaranditstarted--itwasprincipallytheUnitedStates,theAmericaandGreatBritainandoneortwoothers.That'sit.Andtoday,weare90percentofthecasualtiesand90percentofthecosts.Andmeanwhile,NorthKoreahasgotnuclearweapo.Talkaboutmixedmeages.Thepresidentistheonethatsaid,"Wecan'tallowcountriestogetnuclearweapo."Theyhave.I'llchangethat.LEHRER:Newquestion.SenatorKerry,twominutes.Youjust--you'verepeatedlyaccusedPresidentBush--notheretonight,butelsewherebefore--ofnottellingthetruthaboutIraq,eentiallyoflyingtotheAmericanpeopleaboutIraq.Giveussomeexamplesofwhatyoucoidertobehisnottellingthetruth.KERRY:Well,I'venever,everusedtheharshestword,asyoudidjustthen.AndItrynotto.I'vebeen--butI'llnevertheletellyouthatIthinkhehasnotbeencandidwiththeAmericanpeople.AndI'lltellyouexactlyhow.Firstofall,weallknowthatinhisstateoftheunionmeage,hetoldCongreaboutnuclearmaterialsthatdidn'texist.WeknowthathepromisedAmericathathewasgoingtobuildthiscoalition.Ijustdescribedthecoalition.Itisnotthekindofcoalitionweweredescribedwhenweweretalkingaboutvotingforthis.ThepresidentsaidhewouldexhausttheremediesoftheUnitedNatioandgothroughthatfullproce.Hedidn't.Hecutifoff,sortofarbitrarily.Andweknowthattherewerefurtherdiplomaticeffortsunderway.Theyjustdecidedthetimefordiplomacyisoverandrushedtowarwithoutplaingforwhathaeafterwards.Now,hemisledtheAmericanpeopleinhiseechwhenhesaidwewillplancarefully.Theyobviouslydidn't.HemisledtheAmericanpeoplewhenhesaidwe'dgotowarasalastresort.Wedidnotgoasalastresort.AndmostAmericaknowthedifference.Now,thishascostusdeeplyintheworld.IbelievethatitisimportanttotellthetruthtotheAmericanpeople.I'veworkedwiththoseleadersthepresidenttalksabout,I'veworkedwiththemfor20years,forlongerthanthispresident.AndIknowwhatmanyofthemsaytoday,andIknowhowtobringthembacktothetable.AndIbelievethatafreshstart,newcredibility,apresidentwhocanunderstandwhatwehavetodotoreachouttotheMuslimworldtomakeitclearthatthisisnot,youknow--OsamabinLadenusestheinvasionofIraqinordertogoouttopeopleandsaythatAmericahasdeclaredwaronIslam.Weneedtobesmarteraboutnowwewageawaronterror.Weneedtodenythemtherecruits.Weneedtodenythemthesafehave.Weneedtorebuildouralliances.IbelievethatRonaldReagan,JohnKeedy,andtheothersdidthatmoreeffectively,andI'mgoingtotrytofollowintheirfootste.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,Mr.President.BUSH:Myoonentjustsaidsomethingamazing.HesaidOsamabinLadenusestheinvasionofIraqasanexcusetoreadhatredforAmerica.OsamabinLadeni'tgoingtodeterminehowwedefendourselves.OsamabinLadendoe'tgettodecide.TheAmericanpeopledecide.IdecidedtherightactionwasinIraq.Myoonentcallsitamistake.Itwa'tamistake.HesaidImisledonIraq.Idon'tthinkhewasmisleadingwhenhecalledIraqagravethreatinthefallof2002.Idon'tthinkhewasmisleadingwhenhesaidthatitwasrighttodisarmIraqintheringof2003.Idon'tthinkhemisledyouwhenhesaidthat,youknow,anyonewhodoubtedwhethertheworldwasbetteroffwithoutSaddamHueininpowerdidn'thavethejudgmenttobepresident.Idon'tthinkhewasmisleading.IthinkwhatismisleadingistosayyoucanleadandsucceedinIraqifyoukeepchangingyourpositioonthiswar.Andhehas.Asthepoliticschange,hispositiochange.Andthat'snothowacommanderinchiefacts.Letmefinish.TheintelligenceIlookedatwasthesameintelligencemyoonentlookedat,theverysameintelligence.AndwhenIstoodupthereandoketotheCongre,Iwaseakingoffthesameintelligencehelookedattomakehisdecisiotosuorttheauthorizationofforce.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.We'lldoa30secondhere.KERRY:Iwa'tmisleadingwhenIsaidhewasathreat.NorwasImisleadingonthedaythatthepresidentdecidedtogotowarwhenIsaidthathehadmadeamistakeinnotbuildingstrongalliancesandthatIwouldhavepreferredthathedidmorediplomacy.I'vehadoneposition,onecoistentposition,thatSaddamHueinwasathreat.Therewasarightwaytodisarmhimandawrongway.Andthepresidentchosethewrongway.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.BUSH:Theonlycoistentaboutmyoonent'spositionisthathe'sbeenincoistent.Hechangespositio.Andyoucaotchangepositiointhiswaronterrorifyouexpecttowin.AndIexpecttowin.It'snecearywewin.We'rebeingchallengedlikeneverbefore.AndwehaveadutytoourcountryandtofuturegeneratioofAmericatoachieveafreeIraq,afreeAfghanistan,andtoridtheworldofweapoofmadestruction.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.Twominutes.HasthewarinIraqbeenworththecostofAmericanlives,1,052asoftoday?BUSH:Youknow,everylifeisprecious.Everylifematters.Youknow,myhardest--thehardestpartofthejobistoknowthatIcommittedthetrooinharm'swayandthendothebestIcantoprovidecomfortforthelovedoneswholostasonoradaughterorahuandorwife.Youknow,IthinkaboutMiyJohon.She'safantasticladyImetinCharlotte,NorthCarolina.SheandhersonBryan,theycametoseeme.HerhuandPJgotkilled.He'dbeeninAfghanistan,wenttoIraq.Youknow,it'shardworktotrytoloveherasbestasIcan,knowingfullwellthatthedecisionImadecausedherlovedonetobeinharm'sway.ItoldherafterweprayedandtearedupandlaughedsomethatIthoughtherhuand'ssacrificewasnobleandworthy.BecauseIunderstandthestakesofthiswaronterror.IunderstandthatwemustfindAlQaidawherevertheyhide.Wemustdealwiththreatsbeforetheyfullymaterialize.AndSaddamHueinwasathreat,andthatwemustreadlibertybecauseinthelongrun,thewaytodefeathatredandtyrayandoreionistoreadfreedom.Miyunderstoodthat.That'swhatshetoldmeherhuandunderstood.Soyousay,"Wasitworthit?"Everylifeisprecious.That'swhatdistinguishesusfromtheenemy.Everybodymatters.ButIthinkit'sworthit,Jim.Ithinkit'sworthit,becauseIthink--IknowinthelongtermafreeIraq,afreeAfghanistan,willsetsuchapowerfulinapartoftheworldthat'sdeerateforfreedom.Itwithatwecanlookbackandsaywedidourduty.LEHRER:Senator,90seconds.KERRY:Iunderstandwhatthepresidentistalkingabout,becauseIknowwhatitmeatolosepeopleincombat.Andthequestion,isitworththecost,remindsmeofmyownthinkingwhenIcamebackfromfightinginthatwar.Anditremindsmethatitisvitalforusnottoconfusethewar,ever,withthewarriors.Thathaenedbefore.Andthat'soneofthereasowhyIbelieveIcangetthisjobdone,becauseIamdeterminedforthosesoldiersandforthosefamilies,forthosekidswhoputtheirlivesontheline.Thatisnoble.That'sthemostnoblethingthatanybodycando.AndIwanttomakesuretheoutcomehonorsthatnobility.Now,wehaveachoicehere.I'velaidoutaplanbywhichIthinkwecanbesuccefulinIraq:withasummit,bydoingbettertraining,faster,bycutting--bydoingwhatweneedtodowithreecttotheU.N.andtheelectio.There'sonly25percentofthepeopleinthere.Theycan'thaveanelectionrightnow.Thepresident'snotgettingthejobdone.SothechoiceforAmericais,youcanhaveaplanthatI'oryouhavethepresident'splan,whichisfourwords:moreofthesame.Ithinkmyplanisbetter.Andmyplanhasabetterchanceofstandingupandfightingforthosetroo.Iwillneverletthosetroodown,andwillhuntandkilltheterroristswherevertheyare.LEHRER:Allright,sir,goahead.Thirtyseconds.BUSH:Yes,Iunderstandwhatitmeatothecommanderinchief.AndifIweretoeversay,"Thisisthewrongwaratthewrongtimeatthewrongplace,"thetroowouldwonder,howcanIfollowthisguy?Youcaotleadthewaronterrorifyoukeepchangingpositioonthewaronterrorandsaythingslike,"Well,thisisjustagranddiversion."It'snotagranddiversion.Thisisaneentialthatwegetitright.Andso,theplanhetalksaboutsimplywon'twork.LEHRER:SenatorKerry,youhave30seconds.Youhave30seconds,right.Andthenthepresident.KERRY:SecretaryofStateColinPowelltoldthispresidentthePotteryBarnrule:Ifyoubreakit,youfixit.Now,ifyoubreakit,youmadeamistake.It'sthewrongthingtodo.Butyouownit.Andthenyou'vegottofixitanddosomethingwithit.Nowthat'swhatwehavetodo.There'snoincoistency.Soldiersknowovertherethatthisi'tbeingdonerightyet.I'mgoingtogetitrightforthosesoldiers,becauseit'simportanttoIsrael,it'simportanttoAmerica,it'simportanttotheworld,it'simportanttothefightonterror.ButIhaveaplantodoit.Hedoe't.LEHRER:eakingofyourplan,newquestion,SenatorKerry.Twominutes.Canyougiveusecifics,intermsofascenario,timelines,etcetera,forendingmajorU.S.militaryinvolvementinIraq?KERRY:ThetimelinethatI'vesetout--andagain,Iwanttocorrectthepresident,becausehe'smisledagainthiseveningonwhatI'vesaid.Ididn'tsayIwouldbringtroooutinsixmonths.Isaid,ifwedothethingsthatI'vesetoutandwearesucceful,wecouldbegintodrawthetroodowninsixmonths.AndIthinkacriticalcomponentofsucceinIraqisbeingabletoconvincetheIraqisandtheArabworldthattheUnitedStatesdoe'thavelong-termdesigonit.AsIunderstandit,we'rebuildingsome14militarybasestherenow,andsomepeoplesaythey'vegotaratherpermanentconcepttothem.Whenyouguardtheoilministry,butyoudon'tguardthenuclearfacilities,themeagetoalotofpeopleismaybe,"Wow,maybethey'reinterestedinouroil."Now,theproblemisthattheydidn'tthinkthesethingsthroughproperly.Andthesearethethingsyouhavetothinkthrough.WhatIwanttodoischangethedynamicsontheground.AndyouhavetodothatbybegiingtonotbackoffoftheFallujahsandotherplaces,andsendthewrongmeagetotheterrorists.Youhavetoclosetheborders.You'vegottoshowyou'reseriousinthatregard.Butyou'vealsogottoshowthatyouarepreparedtobringtherestoftheworldinandsharethestakes.Iwillmakeaflatstatement:TheUnitedStatesofAmericahasnolong-termdesigonstayinginIraq.Andourgoalinmyadministrationwouldbetogetallofthetroooutoftherewithaminimalamountyouneedfortrainingandlogisticsaswedoinsomeothercountriesintheworldafterawartobeabletosustainthepeace.Butthat'showwe'regoingtowinthepeace,byrapidlytrainingtheIraqisthemselves.Eventheadministrationhasadmittedtheyhaven'tdonethetraining,becausetheycamebacktoCongreafewweeksagoandaskedforacompletereprogrammingofthemoney.Nowwhatgreateradmiionisthere,16monthsafterwards."Oo,wehaven'tdonethejob.Wehavetostarttoendthemoneynow.Willyouguysgiveuspermiiontoshiftitoverintotraining?"LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.BUSH:Thereare100,000trootrained,police,guard,ecialunits,borderpatrol.There'sgoingtobe125,000trainedbytheendofthisyear.Yes,we'regettingthejobdone.It'shardwork.Everybodyknowsit'shardwork,becausethere'sadeterminedenemythat'stryingtodefeatus.Now,myoonentsayshe'sgoingtotrytochangethedynamicsontheground.Well,PrimeMinisterAllawiwashere.Heistheleaderofthatcountry.He'sabrave,braveman.Whenhecame,aftergivingaeechtotheCongre,myoonentquestionedhiscredibility.Youcan'tchangethedynamicsonthegroundifyou'vecriticizedthebraveleaderofIraq.OneofhiscampaignpeopleallegedthatPrimeMinisterAllawiwaslikeapuet.That'snowaytotreatsomebodywho'scourageousandbrave,thatistryingtoleadhiscountryforward.Thewaytomakesurethatwesucceedistosendcoistent,soundmeagestotheIraqipeoplethatwhenwegiveourword,wewillkeepourword,thatwestandwithyou,thatwebelieveyouwanttobefree.AndIdo.Ibelievethat25millionpeople,thevastmajority,longtohaveelectio.Irejectthisnotion--andI'msuggestingmyoonenti't--Irejectthenotionthatsomesaythatifyou'reMuslimyoucan'tfree,youdon'tdesirefreedom.Idisagree,stronglydisagreewiththat.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.KERRY:Icouldn'tagreemorethattheIraqiswanttobefreeandthattheycouldbefree.ButIthinkthepresident,again,stillha'tshownhowhe'sgoingtogoaboutittherightway.Hehasmoreofthesame.Now,PrimeMinisterAllawicamehere,andhesaidtheterroristsarepouringovertheborder.That'sAllawi'saement.ThenationalintelligenceaementthatwasgiventothepresidentinJulysaid,best-casescenario,moreoftheworst-casescenario,civilwar.Icandobetter.BUSH:Yes,letme...LEHRER:Yes,30seconds.BUSH:ThereasonwhyPrimeMinisterAllawisaidthey'recomingacrotheborderisbecauseherecognizesthatthisisacentralpartofthewaronterror.They'refightingusbecausethey'refightingfreedom.TheyunderstandthatafreeAfghanistanorafreeIraqwillbeamajordefeatforthem.Andthosearethestakes.Andthat'swhyitiseentialwenotleave.That'swhyit'seentialweholdtheline.That'swhyit'seentialwewin.Andwewill.Undermyleadershipwe'regoingtowinthiswarinIraq.LEHRER:Mr.President,newquestion.Twominutes.DoestheIraqexperiencemakeitmorelikelyorlelikelythatyouwouldtaketheUnitedStatesintoanotherpreemptivemilitaryaction?BUSH:IwouldhopeIneverhaveto.Iunderstandhowharditistocommittroo.Neverwantedtocommittroo.WhenIwasruing--whenwehadthedebatein2000,neverdreamtI'dbedoingthat.Buttheenemyattackedus,Jim,andIhaveasolemndutytoprotecttheAmericanpeople,todoeverythingIcantoprotectus.Ithinkthatbyeakingclearlyanddoingwhatwesayandnotsendingmixedmeages,itislelikelywe'lleverhavetousetroo.Butapresidentmustalwaysbewillingtousetroo.Itmust--asalastresort.IwashopefuldiplomacywouldworkinIraq.Itwasfallingapart.TherewasnodoubtinmymindthatSaddamHueinwashopingthattheworldwouldturnablindeye.Andifhehadbeeninpower,inotherwords,ifwewouldhavesaid,"Lettheiectorswork,orlet's,youknow,hopetotalkhimout.Maybean18thresolutionwouldwork,"hewouldhavebeenstrongerandtougher,andtheworldwouldhavebeenalotworseoff.There'sjustnodoubtinmymindwewouldruetheday,hadSaddamHueinbeeninpower.Soweusediplomacyeverychanceweget,believeme.AndIwouldhopetoneverhavetouseforce.Butbyeakingclearlyandsendingmeagesthatwemeanwhatwesay,we'veaffectedtheworldinapositiveway.LookatLibya.Libyawasathreat.Libyaisnowpeacefullydismantlingitsweapoprograms.LibyaunderstoodthatAmericaandotherswillenforcedoctrineandthattheworldisbetterforit.Sotoaweryourquestion,Iwouldhopeweneverhaveto.Ithinkbyactingfirmlyanddecisively,itwillmeanitislelikelywehavetouseforce.LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.KERRY:Jim,thepresidentjustsaidsomethingextraordinarilyrevealingandfranklyveryimportantinthisdebate.InawertoyourquestionaboutIraqandsendingpeopleintoIraq,hejustsaid,"Theenemyattackedus."SaddamHueindidn'tattackus.OsamabinLadenattackedus.AlQaidaattackedus.AndwhenwehadOsamabinLadencorneredinthemountaiofToraBora,1,000ofhiscohortswithhiminthosemountai.WiththeAmericanmilitaryforcesnearbyandinthefield,wedidn'tusethebesttrainedtroointheworldtogokilltheworld'snumberonecriminalandterrorist.TheyoutsourcedthejobtoAfghanwarlords,whoonlyaweekearlierhadbeenontheothersidefightingagaitus,neitherofwhomtrustedeachother.That'stheenemythatattackedus.That'stheenemythatwasallowedtowalkoutofthosemountai.That'stheenemythatisnowin60countries,withstrongerrecruits.HealsosaidSaddamHueinwouldhavebeenstronger.Thatisjustfactuallyincorrect.Two-thirdsofthecountrywasano-flyzonewhenwestartedthiswar.Wewouldhavehadsanctio.WewouldhavehadtheU.N.iectors.SaddamHueinwouldhavebeencontinuallyweakening.Ifthepresidenthadshownthepatiencetogothroughanotherroundofresolution,tositdownwiththoseleaders,say,"Whatdoyouneed,whatdoyouneednow,howmuchmorewillittaketogetyoutojoinus?"we'dbeinastrongerplacetoday.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.BUSH:Firstofall,ofcourseIknowOsamabinLadenattackedus.Iknowthat.Andsecondly,tothinkthatanotherroundofresolutiowouldhavecausedSaddamHueintodisarm,disclose,isludicrous,inmyjudgment.Itjustshowsasignificantdifferenceofopinion.Wetrieddiplomacy.Wedidourbest.Hewashopingtoturnablindeye.And,yes,hewouldhavebeenstrongerhadwenotdealtwithhim.Hehadthecapabilityofmakingweapo,andhewouldhavemadeweapo.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Senator.KERRY:Thirty-fivetofortycountriesintheworldhadagreatercapabilityofmakingweapoatthemomentthepresidentinvadedthanSaddamHuein.Andwhilehe'sbeendiverted,with9outof10activedutydivisioofourArmy,eithergoingtoIraq,comingbackfromIraq,orgettingreadytogo,NorthKorea'sgottennuclearweapoandtheworldismoredangerous.Iranismovingtowardnuclearweapoandtheworldismoredangerous.Darfurhasagenocide.Theworldismoredangerous.I'dhavemadeabetterchoice.LEHRER:Newquestion.Twominutes,SenatorKerry.Whatisyourpositiononthewholeconceptofpreemptivewar?KERRY:Thepresidentalwayshastheright,andalwayshashadtheright,forpreemptivestrike.ThatwasagreatdoctrinethroughouttheColdWar.Anditwasalwaysoneofthethingswearguedaboutwithreecttoarmscontrol.Nopresident,throughallofAmericanhistory,haseverceded,andnorwouldI,therighttopreemptinanywaynecearytoprotecttheUnitedStatesofAmerica.Butifandwhenyoudoit,Jim,youhavetodoitinawaythatpaesthetest,thatpaestheglobaltestwhereyourcountrymen,yourpeopleunderstandfullywhyyou'redoingwhatyou'redoingandyoucanprovetotheworldthatyoudiditforlegitimatereaso.HerewehaveourownsecretaryofstatewhohashadtoapologizetotheworldforthepresentationhemadetotheUnitedNatio.Imean,wecanrememberwhenPresidentKeedyintheCubanmiilecrisissenthissecretaryofstatetoParistomeetwithDeGaulle.Andinthemiddleofthediscuion,totellthemaboutthemiilesinCuba,hesaid,"Here,letmeshowyouthephotos."AndDeGaullewavedthemoffandsaid,"No,no,no,no.ThewordofthepresidentoftheUnitedStatesisgoodenoughforme."Howmanyleadersintheworldtodaywouldreondtous,asaresultofwhatwe'vedone,inthatway?SowhatisattesthereisthecredibilityoftheUnitedStatesofAmericaandhowweleadtheworld.AndIranandIraqarenowmoredangerous--IranandNorthKoreaarenowmoredangerous.Now,whetherpreemptionisultimatelywhathastohaen,Idon'tknowyet.ButI'lltellyouthis:Aspresident,I'llnevertakemyeyeoffthatball.I'vebeenfightingforproliferationtheentiretime--anti-proliferationtheentiretimeI'vebeenintheCongre.Andwe'vewatchedthispresidentactuallyturnawayfromsomeofthetreatiesthatwereonthetable.Youdon'thelpyourselfwithothernatiowhenyouturnawayfromtheglobalwarmingtreaty,foritance,orwhenyourefusetodealatlengthwiththeUnitedNatio.Youhavetoearnthatreect.AndIthinkwehavealotofearningbacktodo.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.BUSH:Letme--I'mnotexactlysurewhatyoumean,"paestheglobaltest,"youtakepreemptiveactionifyoupaaglobaltest.MyattitudeisyoutakepreemptiveactioninordertoprotecttheAmericanpeople,thatyouactinordertomakethiscountrysecure.Myoonenttalksaboutmenotsigningcertaintreaties.LetmetellyouonethingIdidn'tsign,andIthinkitshowsthedifferenceofouropinion--thedifferenceofopinio.Andthatis,Iwouldn'tjointheInternationalCriminalCourt.It'sabodybasedinTheHaguewhereunaccountablejudgesandprosecutorscanpullourtrooordiplomatsupfortrial.AndIwouldn'tjoinit.AndIunderstandthatincertaincapitalsaroundtheworldthatthatwa'tapopularmove.Butit'stherightmovenottojoinaforeigncourtthatcould--whereourpeoplecouldbeprosecuted.MyoonentisforjoiningtheInternationalCriminalCourt.Ijustthinktryingtobepopular,kindof,intheglobalsee,ifit'snotinourbestinterestmakesnosee.I'minterestedinworkingwithournatioanddoalotofit.ButI'mnotgoingtomakedecisiothatIthinkarewrongforAmerica.LEHRER:Newquestion,Mr.President.DoyoubelievethatdiplomacyandsanctiocanresolvethenuclearproblemswithNorthKoreaandIran?Taketheminanyorderyouwouldlike.BUSH:NorthKorea,first,Ido.Letmesay--Icertainlyhopeso.BeforeIwasswornin,thepolicyofthisgovernmentwastohavebilateralnegotiatiowithNorthKorea.AndwesignedanagreementwithNorthKoreathatmyadministrationfoundoutthatwasnotbeinghonoredbytheNorthKorea.AndsoIdecidedthatabetterwaytoaroachtheiuewastogetothernatioinvolved,justbesidesus.AndinCrawford,Texas,JiangZeminandIagreedthatthenuclear-weapo-freepeniula,KoreanPeniula,wasinhisinterestandourinterestandtheworld'sinterest.AndsowebegananewdialoguewithNorthKorea,onethatincludednotonlytheUnitedStates,butnowChina.AndChina'sagotalotofinfluenceoverNorthKorea,somewaysmorethanwedo.Aswell,weincludedSouthKorea,JapanandRuia.SonowtherearefivevoiceseakingtoKimJongIl,notjustone.AndsoifKimJongIldecidesagaintonothonoranagreement,he'snotonlydoinginjusticetoAmerica,he'dbedoinginjusticetoChina,aswell.AndIthinkthiswillwork.It'snotgoingtoworkifweopenupadialoguewithKimJongIl.Hewantstounravelthesix-partytalks,orthefive-nationcoalitionthat'ssendinghimaclearmeage.OnIran,Ihopewecandothesamething,continuetoworkwiththeworldtoconvincetheIranianmullahstoabandontheirnuclearambitio.WeworkedverycloselywiththeforeignministersofFrance,GermanyandGreatBritain,whohavebeenthefolksdeliveringthemeagetothemullahsthatifyouexpecttobepartoftheworldofnatio,getridofyournuclearprograms.TheIAEAisinvolved.There'saecialprotocolrecentlybeenpaedthatallowsforiectio.Ihopewecandoit.Andwe'vegotagoodstrategy.LEHRER:SenatorKerry,90seconds.KERRY:WithreecttoIran,theBritish,French,andGermaweretheoneswhoinitiatedaneffortwithouttheUnitedStates,regrettably,tobegintotrytomovetocurbthenuclearpoibilitiesinIran.Ibelievewecouldhavedonebetter.IthinktheUnitedStatesshouldhaveofferedtheoortunitytoprovidethenuclearfuel,testthem,seewhetherornottheywereactuallylookingforitforpeacefulpurposes.Iftheyweren'twillingtoworkadeal,thenwecouldhaveputsanctiotogether.Thepresidentdidnothing.WithreecttoNorthKorea,therealstory:WehadiectorsandtelevisioncamerasinthenuclearreactorinNorthKorea.SecretaryBillPerrynegotiatedthatunderPresidentClinton.Andweknewwherethefuelrodswere.Andweknewthelimitsontheirnuclearpower.ColinPowell,oursecretaryofstate,aouncedonedaythatweweregoingtocontinuethedialogofworkingwiththeNorthKorea.ThepresidentreverseditpubliclywhilethepresidentofSouthKoreawashere.AndthepresidentofSouthKoreawentbacktoSouthKoreabewilderedandembarraedbecauseitwentagaithispolicy.Andfortwoyears,thisadministrationdidn'ttalkatalltoNorthKorea.Whiletheydidn'ttalkatall,thefuelrodscameout,theiectorswerekickedout,thetelevisioncameraswerekickedout.Andtoday,therearefourtosevennuclearweapointhehandsofNorthKorea.Thathaenedonthispresident'swatch.Now,that,Ithink,isoneofthemostserious,sortof,reversalsormixedmeagesthatyoucouldpoiblysend.LEHRER:Iwanttomakesure--yes,sir--butinthisoneminute,Iwanttomakesurethatweunderstand--thepeoplewatchingunderstandthedifferencesbetweenthetwoofyouonthis.Youwanttocontinuethemultinationaltalks,correct?BUSH:Right.LEHRER:Andyou'rewillingtodoit...KERRY:Both.Iwantbilateraltalkswhichputalloftheiues,fromthearmisticeof1952,theeconomiciues,thehumanrightsiues,theartillerydiosaliues,theDMZiuesandthenucleariuesonthetable.LEHRER:Andyou'reoosedtothat.Right?BUSH:Theminutewehavebilateraltalks,thesix-partytalkswillunwind.That'sexactlywhatKimJongIlwants.Andbytheway,thebreachontheagreementwasnotthroughplutonium.Thebreachontheagreementishighlyenricheduranium.That'swhatwecaughthimdoing.That'swherehewasbreakingtheagreement.Secondly,hesaid--myoonentsaidwhereheworkedtoputsanctioonIran--we'vealreadysanctionedIran.Wecan'tsanctionthemanymore.TherearesanctioinplaceonIran.Andfinally,wewereapartytotheconvention--toworkingwithGermany,FranceandGreatBritaintosendtheirforeignministersintoIran.LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes.SenatorKerry,youmentionedDarfur,theDarfurregionofSudan.Fiftythousandpeoplehavealreadydiedinthatarea.Morethanamillionarehomele.Andit'sbeenlabeledanactofongoinggenocide.YetneitheroneofyouoranyoneelsecoectedwithyourcampaigoryouradministrationthatIcanfindhasdiscuedthepoibilityofsendingintroo.Whynot?KERRY:Well,I'lltellyouexactlywhynot,butIfirstwanttosaysomethingaboutthosesanctioonIran.OnlytheUnitedStatesputthesanctioonalone,andthat'sexactlywhatI'mtalkingabout.Inorderforthesanctiotobeeffective,weshouldhavebeenworkingwiththeBritish,FrenchandGermaandothercountries.Andthat'sthedifferencebetweenthepresidentandme.Andthere,again,hesortofslidbythequestion.Now,withreecttoDarfur,yes,itisagenocide.Andmonthsago,manyofuswerepreingforaction.Ithinkthereasonthatwe'renotsayingsendAmericantrooinatthispointisseveralfold.Numberone,wecandothisthroughtheAfricanUnion,providingwegivethemthelogisticalsuort.Rightnowallthepresidentisprovidingishumanitariansuort.Weneedtodomorethanthat.They'vegottohavethelogisticalcapacitytogoinandstopthekilling.Andthat'sgoingtorequiremorethanisonthetabletoday.Ialsobelievethatitis--oneofthereasowecan'tdoitiswe'reoverextended.Askthepeopleinthearmedforcestoday.We'vegotGuardsandReserveswhoaredoingdoubleduties.We'vegotabackdoordrafttakingplaceinAmericatoday:peoplewithstop-loprogramswherethey'retoldyoucan'nineoutofour10activedutydivisiocommittedtoIraqonewayortheother,eithergoing,comingorpreparing.SothisisthewaythepresidenthasoverextendedtheUnitedStates.That'swhy,inmyplan,IaddtwoactivedutydivisiototheUnitedStatesArmy,notforIraq,butforourgeneraldemandsacrotheglobe.Ialsointendtodoublethenumberofecialforcessothatwecandothejobweneedtodowithreectfightingtheterroristsaroundtheworld.Andifwedothat,thenwehavetheabilitytobeabletoreondmorerapidly.ButI'lltellyouthis,aspresident,ifittookAmericanforcestosomedegreetocoalescetheAfricanUnion,I'dbepreparedtodoitbecausewecouldneverallowanotherRwanda.It'sthemoralreoibilityforusandtheworld.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds.BUSH:BacktoIran,justforasecond.ItwasnotmyadministrationthatputthesanctioonIran.ThathaenedlongbeforeIarrivedinWashington,D.C.IntermsofDarfur,Iagreeit'sgenocide.AndColinPowellsostated.Wehavecommitted$200millionworthofaid.We'retheleadingdonorintheworldtohelpthesufferingpeoplethere.Wewillcommitmoreovertimetohelp.WewereverymuchinvolvedattheU.N.onthesanctionpolicyoftheBashirgovernmentintheSudan.PriortoDarfur,AmbaadorJackDanforthhadbeennegotiatinganorth-southagreementthatwewouldhavehopedwouldhavebroughtpeacetotheSudan.Iagreewithmyoonentthatweshouldn'tbecommittingtroo.WeoughttobeworkingwiththeAfricanUniontodoso--preciselywhatwedidinLiberia.Wehelpedstabilizethesituationwithsometroo,andwhentheAfricanUnioncame,wemovedthemout.MyhopeisthattheAfricanUnionmovesrapidlytohelpsavelives.Andfortunatelytherainyseasonwillbeendingshortly,whichwillmakeiteasiertogetaidthereandhelpthelong-sufferingpeoplethere.LEHRER:Newquestion,PresidentBush.Clearly,aswehaveheard,majorpolicydifferencesbetweenthetwoofyou.Aretherealsounderlyingcharacteriuesthatyoubelieve,thatyoubelieveareseriousenoughtodenySenatorKerrythejobascommanderinchiefoftheUnitedStates?BUSH:That'saloadedquestion.Well,firstofall,IadmireSenatorKerry'sservicetoourcountry.Iadmirethefactthatheisagreatdad.Iareciatethefactthathisdaughtershavebeensokindtomydaughtersinwhathasbeenaprettyhardexperiencefor,Igue,younggirls,seeingtheirdadsouttherecampaigning.Iadmirerthefactthatheservedfor20yearsintheSenate.AlthoughI'mnotsosureIadmiretherecord.Iwon'tholditagaithimthathewenttoYale.There'snothingwrongwiththat.Myconceraboutthesenatoristhat,inthecourseofthiscampaign,I'vebeenlisteningverycarefullytowhathesays,andhechangespositioonthewarinIraq.Hechangespositioonsomethingasfundamentalaswhatyoubelieveinyourcore,inyourheartofhearts,isrightinIraq.Youcaotleadifyousendmixedmeages.Mixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstoourtroo.Mixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstoourallies.MixedmeagessendthewrongsignalstotheIraqicitize.Andthat'smybiggestconcernaboutmyoonent.Iadmirehisservice.ButIjustknowhowthisworldworks,andthatinthecouncilsofgovernment,theremustbecertaintyfromtheU.S.president.Ofcourse,wechangetacticswhenneedto,butweneverchangeourbeliefs,thestrategicbeliefsthatarenecearytoprotectthiscountryintheworld.LEHRER:Ninetysecondreoe,Senator.KERRY:Well,firstofall,Iareciateenormouslythepersonalcommentsthepresidentjustmade.AndIsharethemwithhim.Ithinkonlyifyou'redoingthis--andhe'sdoneitmorethanIhaveintermsofthepresidency--canyoubegintogetaseeofwhatitmeatoyourfamilies.Andit'stough.AndsoIacknowledgethathisdaughters--I'vewatchedthem.I'vechuckledafewtimesatsomeoftheircomments.(LAUGHTER)And...BUSH:I'mtryingtoputaleashonthem.(LAUGHTER)KERRY:Well,Iknow.I'velearnednottodothat.(LAUGHTER)AndIhavegreatreectandadmirationforhiswife.Ithinkshe'saterrificperson...BUSH:Thankyou.KERRY:...andagreatfirstlady.Butwedohavedifferences.I'mnotgoingtotalkaboutadifferenceofcharacter.Idon'tthinkthat'smyjobormybusine.Butletmetalkaboutsomethingthatthepresidentjustsortoffinishedupwith.Maybesomeonewouldcallitacharactertrait,maybesomebodywouldn't.Butthisiueofcertainty.It'sonethingtobecertain,butyoucanbecertainandbewrong.It'sanothertobecertainandberight,ortobecertainandbemovingintherightdirection,orbecertainaboutaprincipleandthenlearnnewfactsandtakethosenewfactsandputthemtouseinordertochangeandgetyourpolicyright.WhatIworryaboutwiththepresidentisthathe'snotacknowledgingwhat'sontheground,he'snotacknowledgingtherealitiesofNorthKorea,he'snotacknowledgingthetruthofthescienceofstem-cellresearchorofglobalwarmingandotheriues.Andcertaintysometimescangetyouintrouble.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.BUSH:Well,Ithink--listen,Ifullyagreethatoneshouldshifttactics,andwewill,inIraq.Ourcommandershavegotalltheflexibilitytodowhatisnecearytosucceed.ButwhatIwon'tdoischangemycorevaluesbecauseofpoliticsorbecauseofpreure.AnditisoneofthethingsI'velearnedintheWhiteHouse,isthatthere'senormouspreureonthepresident,andhecaotwiltunderthatpreure.Otherwise,theworldwon'tbebetteroff.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds.KERRY:Ihavenointentionofwilting.I'veneverwiltedinmylife.AndI'veneverwaveredinmylife.IknowexactlywhatweneedtodoinIraq,andmypositionhasbeencoistent:SaddamHueinisathreat.Heneededtobedisarmed.WeneededtogototheU.N.Thepresidentneededtheauthoritytouseforceinordertobeabletogethimtodosomething,becauseheneverdiditwithoutthethreatofforce.Butwedidn'tneedtorushtowarwithoutaplantowinthepeace.LEHRER:Newquestion,twominutes,SenatorKerry.Ifyouareelectedpresident,whatwillyoutaketothatofficethinkingisthesinglemostseriousthreattothenationalsecuritytotheUnitedStates?KERRY:Nuclearproliferation.Nuclearproliferation.There'ssome600-plustoofuecuredmaterialstillintheformerSovietUnionandRuia.Attheratethatthepresidentiscurrentlysecuringit,it'lltake13yearstogetit.Ididalotofworkonthis.Iwroteabookaboutitseveralyearsago--six,sevenyearsago--called"TheNewWar,"whichsawthedifficultiesofthisinternationalcriminalnetwork.Andbackthen,weinterceptedasuitcaseinaMiddleEasterncountrywithnuclearmaterialsinit.Andtheblackmarketsalepricewasabout$250million.Now,thereareterroriststryingtogettheirhandsonthatstufftoday.Andthispresident,Iregrettosay,hassecuredlenuclearmaterialinthelasttwoyearssince9/11thanwedidinthetwoyearspreceding9/11.Wehavetodothisjob.Andtodothejob,youcan'tcutthemoneyforit.Thepresidentactuallycutthemoneyforit.Youhavetoputthemoneyintoitandthefundingandtheleadership.AndpartofthatleadershipissendingtherightmeagetoplaceslikeNorthKorea.Rightnowthepresidentisendinghundredsofmillioofdollarstoresearchbunker-bustingnuclearweapo.TheUnitedStatesispursuinganewsetofnuclearweapo.Itdoe'tmakesee.Youtalkaboutmixedmeages.We'retellingotherpeople,"Youcan'thavenuclearweapo,"butwe'repursuinganewnuclearweaponthatwemightevencontemplateusing.Notthispresident.I'mgoingtoshutthatprogramdown,andwe'regoingtomakeitcleartotheworldwe'reseriousaboutcontainingnuclearproliferation.Andwe'regoingtogetthejobofcontainingallofthatnuclearmaterialinRuiadoneinfouryears.Andwe'regoingtobuildthestrongestinternationalnetworktopreventnuclearproliferation.ThisisthescaleofwhatPresidentKeedysetouttodowiththenucleartestbantreaty.It'sourgeneration'sequivalent.AndIintendtogetitdone.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,Mr.President.BUSH:Actually,we'veincreasedfundingfordealingwithnuclearproliferationabout35percentsinceI'vebeenthepresident.Secondly,we'vesetupwhat'scalledthe--well,firstofall,Iagreewithmyoonentthatthebiggestthreatfacingthiscountryisweapoofmadestructioninthehandsofaterroristnetwork.Andthat'swhyproliferationisoneofthecenterpiecesofamulti-prongstrategytomakethecountrysafer.Myadministrationstartedwhat'scalledtheProliferationSecurityInitiative.Over60natioinvolvedwithdisruptingthetra-shipmentofinformationand/orweapoofmadestructionmaterials.Andwe'vebeeneffective.WebustedtheA.Q.Khannetwork.ThiswasaproliferatoroutofPakistanthatwassellingsecretstoplaceslikeNorthKoreaandLibya.WeconvincedLibyatodisarm.It'sacentralpartofdealingwithweapoofmadestructionandproliferation.I'lltellyouanotherwaytohelpprotectAmericainthelongrunistocontinuewithmiiledefees.Andwe'vegotarobustresearchanddevelopmentprogramthathasbeenongoingduringmyadministration.We'llbeimplementingamiile-defeesystemrelativelyquickly.Andthatisanotherwaytohelpdealwiththethreatsthatwefaceinthe21stcentury.Myoonentoosedthemiiledefees.LEHRER:Justforthisone-minutediscuionhere,justforwhateversecondsittakes:Soit'scorrecttosay,thatifsomebodyislisteningtothis,thatbothofyouagree,ifyou'rereelected,Mr.President,andifyouareelected,thesinglemostseriousthreatyoubelieve,bothofyoubelieve,isnuclearproliferation?BUSH:Inthehandsofaterroristenemy.KERRY:Weapoofmadestruction,nuclearproliferation.Butagain,thetestorthedifferencebetweenus,thepresidenthashadfouryearstotrytodosomethingaboutit,andNorthKoreahasgotmoreweapoIranismovingtowardweapo.Andathispace,itwilltake13yearstosecurethoseweapoinRuia.I'mgoingtodoitinfouryears,andI'mgoingtoimmediatelysetouttohavebilateraltalkswithNorthKorea.LEHRER:Yourreoetothat?BUSH:Again,Ican'ttellyouhowbigamistakeIthinkthatis,tohavebilateraltalkswithNorthKorea.It'spreciselywhatKimJongIlwants.Itwillcausethesix-partytalkstoevaporate.ItwillmeanthatChinanolongerisinvolvedinconvincing,alongwithus,forKimJongIltogetridofhisweapo.It'sabigmistaketodothat.WemusthaveChina'sleverageonKimJongIl,besidesourselves.Andifyouenterbilateraltalks,they'llbehaytowalkawayfromthetable.Idon'tthinkthat'llwork.LEHRER:Allright.Mr.President,thisisthelastquestion.Andtwominutes.It'sanewsubject--newquestion,andithastodowithPresidentPutinandRuia.Didyoumisjudgehimorareyou--doyoufeelthatwhatheisdoinginthenameofantiterrorismbychangingsomedemocraticproceesisOK?BUSH:No,Idon'tthinkit'sOK,andsaidsopublicly.Ithinkthatthereneedstobechecksandbalancesinademocracy,andmadethatveryclearthatbycoolidatingpowerinthecentralgovernment,he'ssendingasignaltotheWesternworldandUnitedStatesthatperhahedoe'tbelieveinchecksandbalances,andItoldhimthat.Imean,he'salsoastrongallyinthewaronterror.Heis--listen,theywentthroughahorriblesituationinBeslan,wheretheseterroristsgueddownyoungschoolkids.That'sthenatureoftheenemy,bytheway.That'swhyweneedtobefirmandresolveinbringingthemtojustice.That'spreciselywhatVladimirPutinunderstands,aswell.I'vegotagoodrelationwithVladimir.Andit'simportantthatwedohaveagoodrelation,becausethatenablesmetobettercommenttohim,andtobettertodiscuwithhim,someofthedecisiohemakes.Ifoundthat,inthisworld,thatit'simportanttoestablishgoodpersonalrelatiohiwithpeoplesothatwhenyouhavedisagreements,you'reabletodisagreeinawaythatiseffective.AndsoI'vetoldhimmyopinion.Ilookforwardtodiscuingitmorewithhim,astimegoeson.Ruiaisacountryintraition.Vladimirisgoingtohavetomakesomehardchoices.AndIthinkit'sveryimportantfortheAmericanpresident,aswellasotherWesternleaders,toremindhimofthegreatbenefitsofdemocracy,thatdemocracywillbesthelpthepeoplerealizetheirhopesandairatioanddreams.AndIwillcontinueworkingwithhimoverthenextfouryears.LEHRER:Ninetyseconds,SenatorKerry.KERRY:Well,letmejustsayquicklythatI'vehadanextraordinaryexperienceofwatchingupcloseandpersonalthattraitioninRuia,becauseIwasthererightafterthetraformation.AndIwasprobablyoneofthefirstsenators,alongwithSenatorBobSmithofNewHamhire,aformersenator,godownintotheKGBunderneathTreblinkaSquareandseereamsoffileswithnamesinthem.ItsortofbroughthomethetraitiontodemocracythatRuiawastryingtomake.Iregretwhat'shaenedinthesepastmonths.AndIthinkitgoesbeyondjustthereoetoterror.Mr.Putinnowcontrolsallthetelevisionstatio.Hispoliticaloositionisbeingputinjail.AndIthinkit'sveryimportanttotheUnitedStates,obviously,tohaveaworkingrelatiohipthatisgood.Thisisaveryimportantcountrytous.Wewantapartnership.Butwealwayshavetostandupfordemocracy.AsGeorgeWillsaidtheotherday,"FnotinRuiarightnow."Now,I'dliketocomebackforaquickmoment,ifIcan,tothatiueaboutChinaandthetalks.Becausethat'soneofthemostcriticaliueshere:NorthKorea.Justbecausethepresidentsaysitcan'tbedone,thatyou'dloseChina,doe'tmeanitcan'tbedone.Imean,thisisthepresidentwhosaid"Therewereweapoofmadestruction,"said"Miionaccomplished,"saidwecouldfightthewaronthecheap--noneofwhichweretrue.WecouldhavebilateraltalkswithKimJongIl.AndwecangetthoseweapoatthesametimeaswegetChina.BecauseChinahasaninterestintheoutcome,too.LEHRER:Thirtyseconds,Mr.President.BUSH:YouknowmyopiniononNorthKorea.Ican'tsayitanymoreplainly.LEHRER:Well,butwhenheusedtheword"truth"again...BUSH:Pardonme?LEHRER:...talkingaboutthetruthofthematter.Heusedtheword"truth"again.Didthatraiseanyhackleswithyou?BUSH:Oh,I'maprettycalmguy.Idon'ttakeitpersonally.LEHRER:OK.Allright.BUSH:Youknow,welookedatthesameintelligenceandcametothesameconclusion:thatSaddamHueinwasagravethreat.AndIdon'tholditagaithimthathesaidgravethreat.I'mnotgoingtogoaroundthecountrysayinghedidn'ttellthetruth,whenhelookedatthesameintelligenceIdid.KERRY:Itwasathreat.That'snottheiue.Theiueiswhatyoudoaboutit.Thepresidentsaidhewasgoingtobuildatruecoalition,exhausttheremediesoftheU.N.andgotowarasalastresort.Thosewordsreallyhavetomeansomething.And,unfortunately,hedidn'tgotowarasalastresort.NowwehavethisincrediblemeinIraq--$200billion.It'snotwhattheAmericanpeoplethoughttheyweregettingwhentheyvoted.LEHRER:Allright,thatbringsustoclosingstatements.And,again,asdeterminedbyacointo,SenatorKerry,yougofirst,andyouhavetwominutes.KERRY:Thankyou,Jim,verymuch.Thankyouverymuchtotheuniversity,again.Thankyou,Mr.President.MyfellowAmerica,asI'vesaidattheverybegiingofthisdebate,bothPresidentBushandIlovethiscountryverymuch.There'snodoubt,Ithink,aboutthat.Butwehaveadifferentsetofconvictioabouthowwemakeourcountrystrongerhereathomeandreectedagainintheworld.Iknowthatformanyofyousittingathome,parentsofkidsinIraq,youwanttoknowwho'sthepersonwhocouldbeacommanderinchiefwhocouldgetyourkidshomeandgetthejobdoneandwinthepeace.AndforalltherestoftheparentsinAmericawhoarewonderingabouttheirkidsgoingtotheschooloranywhereelseintheworld,whatkindofworldthey'regoingtogrowupin,letmelookyouintheeyeandsaytoyou:Idefendedthiscountryasayoungmanatwar,andIwilldefenditaspresidentoftheUnitedStates.ButIhaveadifferencewiththispresident.Ibelievewhenwe'restrongestwhenwereachoutandleadtheworldandbuildstrongalliances.IhaveaplanforIraq.Ibelievewecanbesucceful.I'mnottalkingaboutleaving.I'mtalkingaboutwiing.Andweneedafreshstart,anewcredibility,apresidentwhocanbringalliestoourside.Ialsohaveaplantowinthewaronterror,fundinghomelandsecurity,strengtheningourmilitary,cuttingourfinances,reachingouttotheworld,againbuildingstrongalliances.IbelieveAmerica'sbestdaysareaheadofusbecauseIbelievethatthefuturebelongstofreedom,nottofear.That'sthecountrythatI'mgoingtofightfor.AndIaskyoutogivemetheoortunitytomakeyouproud.Iaskyoutogivemetheoortunitytoleadthisgreatnation,sothatwecanbestrongerhereathome,reectedagainintheworld,andhavereoibleleadershipthatwedeserve.Thankyou.AndGodbleAmerica.LEHRER:Mr.President,twominutes.BUSH:Thankyouverymuchtonight,Jim.Senator.IfAmericashowsuncertaintyorweakneinthisdecade,theworldwilldrifttowardtragedy.That'snotgoingtohaen,solongasI'myourpresident.Thenextfouryearswewillcontinuetostrengthenourhomelanddefees.Wewillstrengthenourintelligence-gatheringservices.Wewillreformourmilitary.Themilitarywillbeanall-volunteerarmy.Wewillcontinuetostayontheoffee.Wewillfighttheterroristsaroundtheworldsowedonothavetofacethemhereathome.We'llcontinuetobuildouralliances.I'llneverturnoverAmerica'snationalsecurityneedstoleadersofothercountries,aswecontinuetobuildthosealliances.Andwe'llcontinuetoreadfreedom.Ibelieveinthetraformationalpowerofliberty.IbelievethatthefreeIraqisinthisnation'sinterests.IbelieveafreeAfghanistanisinthisnation'sinterest.AndIbelievebothafreeAfghanistanandafreeIraqwillserveasapowerfulexampleformilliowhopleadinsilenceforlibertyinthebroaderMiddleEast.We'vedonealotofhardworktogetheroverthelastthreeandahalfyears.We'vebeenchallenged,andwe'verisentothosechallenges.We'veclimbedthemightymountain.Iseethevalleybelow,andit'savalleyofpeace.Bybeingsteadfastandresoluteandstrong,bykeepingourword,bysuortingourtroo,wecanachievethepeaceweallwant.Iareciateyourlisteningtonight.Iaskforyourvote.AndmayGodcontinuetobleourgreatland.LEHRER:Andthatendstonight'sdebate.Areminder,thesecondpresidentialdebatewillbeaweekfromtomorrow,October8th,fromWashingtonUniversityinSt.Louis.CharlesGionofABCNewswillmoderateatownhall-typeevent.Then,onOctober13th,fromArizonaStateUniversityinTempe,BobSchiefferofCNewswillmoderateanexchangeondomesticpolicythatwillbesimilarinformattotonight's.Also,thiscomingTuesday,atCaseWesternReserveUniversityinCleveland,thevicepresidentialcandidates,VicePresidentCheneyandSenatorEdwards,willdebatewithmycolleague,GwenIfill,moderating.Fornow,thankyou,SenatorKerry,PresidentBush.FromCoralGables,Florida,I'mJimLehrer.Thankyouandgoodnight.(ALAUSE)
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